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Links: political psychology, gay marrage

The more educated Republicans/conservatives are, the more they reject science.
True of liberals? Apparently not: they start out with an anti-nuclear bias, but more education on the subject lessens their worries, moving them closer to the scientific consensus, rather than further away, as with conservatives and global warming.

Medicalization of anti-authoritarianism.

Jeb Bush: "I used to be a conservative" http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0212/73242.html

gay marriage passes Maryland's Democratic legislature, referendum likely
Initiative in Maine likely, to overcome the anti-marriage referendum three years ago
(No links, just heads up.)

Santorum more scary than you thought:

See the comment count unavailable DW comments at http://mindstalk.dreamwidth.org/308098.html#comments



Feb. 25th, 2012 08:58 pm (UTC)
What motive?

Did you look at the links? http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2006/07/medieval-warmth-and-english-wine/
It seems England hasn't been grapeless since the Norman invasion. "Commercial" I can't speak to, but a low point of only 8 vineyards is described.

Cheshire is... further north than Northampthonshire, though also on the western coast.

"can hardly be brought as triumphant evidence of unheard-of heat"

I wasn't the one who brought up English wine; *you* were, claiming an absence of grapes for 1800 years as the foundation of your disbelief in global warming. I disproved that. I make no strong claims otherwise based on that; as the link points out, viticulture is a crappy proxy for global warming, being sensitive to skill at finding microclimates, varieties, and trade economics. (Though the fact that English wine is booming even while in free competition with cheap wine from around the world, vs. being a desperation measure in a time of expensive and erratic trade, is suggestive.)

Let me emphasize that. You have a belief, in AGW not being real. You implied this is based heavily on a 'fact' of grapes not growing in England, which *you* brought up. The fact is false. Rationally, that should at least weaken your confidence in your belief: you had a foundation, which has been knocked away. Instead, you seem to be regrouping and attacking arguments I didn't even make, just as the alternet article suggested: the belief must be defended, no matter the logic!

Production seems to have taken off in the 1950s, I don't know if 60 years ago is a few decades for you. 124 vineyards by 1977.

"However, one can conclude that those who are using the medieval English vineyards as a ‘counter-proof’ to the idea of present day global warming are just blowing smoke (or possibly drinking too much Californian). If they are a good proxy, then England is warmer now, and if they are not…. well, why talk about them in this context at all? "

"Current theories of climate change do not rely on whether today’s temperatures are ‘unprecedented’. Instead they examine the physical causes of climate change and match up what we know about their physical effects and time history and see which of the multiple drivers or combination can best explain the observations. For the last few decades, that is quite clearly the rise in greenhouse gases, punctuated by the occasional volcano and mitigated slightly by the concomittant rise in particulate pollution."

Edited at 2012-02-25 09:20 pm (UTC)
Feb. 26th, 2012 10:27 am (UTC)
You insist on arguing on stuff you know nothing about. It is evident from what you say that you have never had anything to do with wine-making - and it so happens that I have. Growing grapes in a country is no guarantee that you will be able to make wine. You have to be sure of regular harvests, and of harversts of suitable quality. Commercial wine making in Britain was in its infancy in the seventies, in spite of the widespread use of hardy northern varieties grown for the Rhineland and the Alps - an advantage the Romans did not have. Please stop embarrassing yourself.
Feb. 27th, 2012 01:03 am (UTC)
Were the Romans growing Mediterranean varieties, or or Gaulish ones? The Romans were around for few centuries, might they have bred varieties more adapted to Britain? Was their British wine any good, or was it just good enough people preferring wine to ales and facing expensive shipping?

Post Norman England apparently never had fewer than 8 vineyards, albeit perhaps producing lousy wine.

Anyway, take your own advice. This whole discussion isn't even relevant any more for AGW, as has been explained, starting with the reason "microclimates".
Feb. 27th, 2012 07:10 am (UTC)
OH, what the Hell. I've got other things to do. Surrree you're right. We're all going to boil to death in our own CO2. And pigs fly, New York City bridges can be bought for moderate prices from guys in trenchcoats, and BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN was the best movie on the year it was awarded. Why not?
Feb. 28th, 2012 04:02 am (UTC)
boil to death in our own CO2

How can you argue effectively if you can't even represent what your opponent says? The actual claims are about shifting weather patterns (like rain and temperature ranges for crops), loss of glacial water supplies (for cities and crops), increased evaporation (drying out crops), increased storm intensity, and sea-level rise. Also acidification of the oceans, though that's less about temperature and more about CO2 absorption by the oceans.

One better thing to do would be to read here:


Damien Sullivan

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